Interviewed Pat at the Sweat. And also Michael "Running Water" explained some of his understandingds of the ritual, always being careful that we heard the story as his perception of the fire area. Each wxplained how our grandfathers talk to us - our ancestors energies captured in the stones from the beginning of our times. All of our wisdom thqat has ever been spoke has been heard by the rocks. When we heat the rocks to "red hot" and bring them into the lodge, that has been prepared for the occasion. There are a variety of way of preparing the lodge and it vaqries with each nation. Some use sage, sweetgrass, various incenses, cedar. The lodge is built in a particular way as well. The structure and its positioning on the north south axis. The sacred area in front otf the door of the lodge is prepared in a special way. A pole is sometimes put there with the various colours of materials haning from its height of 6-7 feet. An eagle feather is attached by a leather thong. The feather to symbolize that our prayers are carried on the wings of an eagle. Thespace having been prepared is only entered after an acknowledgement of the altar and the sacred objects on it. Each brings his /her own sacred objects to the sweat in order that they be empowered by the experience. The elder leaeds the way intot the seat acknolwedging the alter on his way in, and saying all my relations as he enters. Then each enters the lodge in a clockwise fashion sitting as close to the next person as you possibly can, comfortably. Each sweat I have expereinced there have always been at least two more in the seweat than you would have thought was possible. This Sundays was not so packed as the structure had been enlarged to hold seventeen, and we had twelve participants - several participants from the previous week looking after some other personal affairs. (Travelling and pinched nerve, etc.)

After everyone is comfortably sitting in the circle the leader invites in our grandfathers. Seven are invitied in. As the stones arrive they are sometinmes greeted with the "welcome grandfather" greeting, and sometimes in silence. When the seventh stone has arrived, and it is determined that each of us is aware of the basics of the ceremony, sometimes some more incese is added at this time, and then the door/cover is closed. The lodge goes into a complete pitch black experience - with only the red glowing of our grandfathers in the center of the hut. We are all seated in either a squatting position changing from time to time the various positions as we sit still for the full time of this expereince. . A prayer is said or sometimes sung welcoming in the grandfathers and their wisdom. After some prayers for humanity, and all of our relations, the earth, the sky, granfather sun, grandmother moon, the stars in the sky, and all heavenly constellations, then down to the tiniest of things to the smallest life form, bringing positive thoughts to all, and "all my relations" which is always the conluding statement. After the leader says his prayers then we go clockwise again around the room with each getting the opportunity to either pray aloud, or silently, in any language or maner that one chooses, always ending with "all my relations." During this experience water is added to the stones sending up billows of heat ladden air that quickly surrounds all parts of your body. The temperature is not so bad as this is the first of four rounds, each round being a complete process in itself. When the room gets too hot for one, they can end the round by speaking up, although it is seldom done. I remeber the first sweats I had with Vern Harper, the deep intensity of the sweat, and the deep learning I received because I accepted the experience.

I remember learning about the importance of my breathing. Not that I had not been aware of the importance of breathing, since I had written a booklet on it, and studied several wise persons concepts of breathing techniques - from Andrew Weill, to Bagwan Shree Rajneesh, Tony Robbins, xxx Schwartz all who have written many ideas on the importance of breath. My experience was not one that they wrote about. It was unique as I shall attempt to explain. The air was so hot in the lodge that if I breathed in too fast I would singe my nostrils or my mouth. I had to balance my desparate need for air against my ability to tolerate the heat. I breathed in only enough to stay alive, or rather conscious. It was a very deliberate breath. I can only now try and imagine the experience - there is nothing like it until you experience it. And it will be different for each person - our senses are different - from our sense of temerature, to our sense of pain noting that each is a different sense as well. So much for memories - back to the sweat at hand.

After four rounds, we leave the sweat and the leader leaves first, honouring the alter as he leaves, and then we each follow with a greeting and a thanks for the experience as we meet around the fire outside the lodge. The firekeeper is also thanked by all and greeted as asn integral part of the experience.

We all go back to the house and share in a great feast. We sat around this evening and told stories and sang songs. By eight o'clock we were off to our home for the night.